Art Educator Kyle Wood’s Podcast “Who ARTed” Features “Museum of Dogs”!
I had the pleasure of being a guest on “Who ARTed,” a podcast hosted by the amazing arts educator (get it, Art Ed???) Kyle Wood, and I had such an amazing time! Listen to the episode, or read the transcript below!
Who ARTed: Weekly Art History for All Ages, A Podcast Hosted by Kyle Wood - Episode “Jessica Poundstone | Museum of Dogs”
KYLE: Welcome to Who ARTed, weekly art history for all ages I’m your host Kyle Wood, and today my guest is the author of an upcoming book that I am personally very excited about, because I absolutely love art, and I love dogs, and this book brings the two of them together. Jessica Poundstone has a new book coming out called “Museum of Dogs: A Romp Through Art History for Dog People.” It’s coming from Chronicle Books, and it’s gonna be hitting your favorite bookstores starting on Tuesday May 6th. Thank you so much Jessica for coming on, I really appreciate your making time for me.
JESSICA: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me!
KYLE: Congratulations on the book — I do have to ask though it may seem a bit obvious because like I said, I love art and I love dogs, but what made you want to write this book, or how did you think to put these together?
JESSICA: Yeah, I also love dogs, I love art, and I love museums, so it’s actually surprising that it took as long as it did for me to think of this! It really started when I was on the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s website. I knew from way back, from something I had read, that they had started offering photographs of their collection as public domain images. And I kept that in mind as a resource because in my day job I'm an artist. I was on their website looking for some vase shapes — I was curious about ancient vase shapes for a project, and I was like — bulbous! Tall! What are the different shapes that ancient vases came in? So I was looking around and seeing all of these wonderful things, and for some reason it just occurred to me: “What if I were to enter the word ‘dog’ into this search engine?” And I did, and….treasures! Treasures appeared. I was just blown away. I think every time I've gone to museums — you know you're always looking for the things that kind of light you up — and so I think the dogs at museums have always been on my radar. Oh look in that painting in the corner it’s a dog, that's so cute! Or maybe you’d see a dog in a hunting scene, or on a Greek vase in a chase or something like that.
“I don’t think I expected to see a lot of artwork where the dog was the main character, and that’s really — I mean there’s also a lot of dogs in a lot of peripheral roles in a lot of art — but main character dogs are abundant in art, and have been since ancient times. The feeling was that I could not wait to show everyone I knew these dogs that I had found.”
I don’t think I expected to see a lot of artwork where the dog was the main character, and that's really — I mean there's also a lot of dogs in a lot of peripheral roles in a lot of art — but main character dogs are abundant in art, and have been since ancient times. The feeling was that I could not wait to show everyone I knew these dogs that I had found.
KYLE: See that's interesting to me because I have always thought of dogs as sort of on the periphery of art, because we see dogs that are symbolic of something. You know, the lap dog and everything like that. occasionally in a picture or off to the side. But you're right there is something about seeing pets in fine art that lights people up.
I know in my own classroom kids are always reacting to the dog that they find in it — or really pets and animals generally. A prime example would be George Seurat’s “A Sunday on La Grande Jatte.” The woman walking her pet monkey through the park: that’s the talk of the classroom. Forget about the pointillism, forget about the historical significance, it's just like animals are rad and we can all agree on that. I think it's so cool that you're bringing us this book that says dogs are not just an accessory or an afterthought, they can be the central focus of a piece.
So can you tell me about some of the awesome dogs that you've seen, and maybe some let's drop some names. Who are some famous artists that did stuff with dogs in their work?
JESSICA: Sure, yes. Klimt is in here, with a sketch of some poodles. Apparently Klimt was not a super dog guy, more of a cat guy, with seven to nine cats in his studio at all times. But someone brought some dogs in, and he did a sketch, and it’s lovely.
KYLE: Yeah, because there’s always that Klimt joke about you know he used cat urine as a fixative in his drawings.
JESSICA: Oh yes - well, he had a steady supply, apparently. Not a problem.
Toulouse-Lautrec is in here, with a sketch of a couple of dogs. Since the book was finished, I’ve found many other pictures Toulouse-Lautrec did of dogs. So maybe there will be a future book with more of his work in it.
Franz Marc, who had this mystical connection to animals has a picture in this book of two white dogs running in the snow. I think it is probably the most beautiful picture in the book, to me. He had a Siberian sheepdog whose name was Russi. He also had a couple of pet deer named Schlick and Hanni, so that's just fun to know.
“Franz Marc, who had this mystical connection to animals has a picture in this book of two white dogs running in the snow. I think it is probably the most beautiful picture in the book, to me. He had a Siberian sheepdog whose name was Russi. He also had a couple of pet deer named Schlick and Hanni, so that’s just fun to know. ”
We’ve got Rembrandt, we’ve got Renoir, we’ve got Manet —I think those are all of the big name drops in the book
KYLE: I love it and I love the unexpected pet deer. I mean artists seem to have the most odd and unexpected pets — whether it's Dali or Khalo — we always hear about these pets that you would never think of, but it's kind of cool and fun.
And as we talk about the dogs though, I do want to start to think about what can we glean from the presence of these dogs in the artwork and what are you seeing as maybe trends and how dogs are portrayed. I'm curious — historically and culturally — is it different, the way that a dog might have been portrayed in an ancient Greek or Roman work compared to how Toulouse-Lautrec was doing? And how contemporary artists work with that subject matter.I know there's probably a lot of variability even within cultures, but I want to start to classify: what are we seeing and how are we thinking and interpreting these works?
JESSICA: Yeah, there is a lot of variation. When a dog is a peripheral character in a piece, a lot of times art historians and art critics and folks are talking about how that dog is symbolizing fidelity, loyalty — the core characteristics that we think of when we think of dogs. There's also a lot of symbolism — one of the pieces in the book is a bronze figurine of a dog that is created by an African tribe created to weigh gold dust. That was their primary currency and so they have a very rich culture of storytelling, you know basically, fables. So every piece that they made out of bronze that was a different figure represented a different story from their culture and it was meant — you know they’re handling these every day — so it's meant to remind them of the stories and the morality and morals of their culture just like fables would.
So that was one really cool sort of symbolism and interpretation of a dog I wasn’t expecting to find. There are a lot of hunting dogs in paintings — I did not include any of those in the book, because I didn't need to and I thought, you know, let's have some things that are more unexpected. In some of the pieces from China, it was a symbol of wealth. You know, hey look at my horse, hey look at my dog — they are basically status symbols. Yeah there are so many more, but those are the ones that pop to mind.
KYLE: That's interesting — I never really thought of a dog as a status symbol. I mean if it's an exotic dog, if it's from another place, there's trade involved there's the fact that you have the resources and the wealth to support another creature and take another thing in as a pet — and you know it's it's not cheap to own a dog but it is so rewarding.
Now we've started to hint at this, but I always like to dive a little bit deeper into some of the specific works you have talked about in the book. So we've got here actually two images of the same dog by two different artists. We have a Renoir and a Manet painting of the same dog. That is amazing to me. How did that come about that both of these famous artists are doing the same dog?
JESSICA: They had the same friends who brought this dog back from Japan! So there was this guy named Henry Cernuschi, and he got very excited when Asia opened up to travelers and tourism. And he had a friend who was an art critic named Theodore Duret. And they were both really early supporters of the Impressionists and knew both Renoir and Manet. So they came back to France — Cernuschi ended up coming back with around 5,000 things from his travels over two years; 3,600 of those things were Japanese objects — and he started his own art museum. I mean I've been there — it's in Paris, and it’s a built-for-purpose building, so that he could show the world all of these things that he brought back.
But one of the things they brought back — and I actually just found this when I was researching this a little bit deeper for our conversation today — but Duret wrote a book about their travels in Asia called “Voyage in Asia,” and it was published in 1874 which is kind of crazy because it was within a year from when they got back — he was probably writing it all along — but he told the story of how they found Tama the Japanese Spaniel. He said “we were passing by Koriyama when a little girl who was carrying the dog in her arms agreed to sell it to us.”
So basically there was a street vendor with a dog and they decided to buy the dog from this little girl. They named the dog Tama which means “jewel” in Japanese. This type of dog, the Japanese spaniel, was the preferred dog of Japanese royalty. So they brought the dog back to France, and Duret commissioned a portrait of her from Manet, and Cernushi commissioned the painting by Renoir.
KYLE: Oh that's interesting. I do have to say I was a little bit nervous about that story as you started talking about a little girl who had a dog — like please tell me they did not steal the dog.
JESSICA: Hahahaha, no. NO.
KYLE: Long time listeners have heard me talk about this so many times, but in the 19th century Japan was opening up to trade — I mean forced to open up to trade with the Western world — that was so revolutionary. It had such a significant influence on the Impressionists and post Impressionists through the woodcuts; I've talked ad nauseam about that. But it's important to remember it wasn't just woodcuts, prints and Hokusai filtering out into the world. It was all sorts of elements of culture, including these dogs, which I didn't know about. I'm always super excited when I learned something new. I love that, so thank you so much.
JESSICA: Of course! And to your point, I took this note of what he brought back — and like I said, I was lucky enough to be in there and see all these objects, some of which were just breathtaking. There were bronzes, ceramics, paintings, prints carved wooden objects, photographs, illustrated books. So yeah, him bringing all of those things back, putting them in a place where everyone could see them, and having all of these close relationships with artists of the day who were the Impressionists — they were able to see them, take them in, spend time with these objects and, as you're saying, they a big impact on how they saw the world and what was possible for them and for their artwork.
KYLE: As we talk about the impressionists and I should clarify we're talking about Édouard Manet, not Eugène Manet, because you know the brothers both were artists, and sometimes I just say Manet, and I saw oh Manet was married to Morisot, but we’re talking about Édouard — “The Luncheon on the Grass” and “Olympia” were two of his most well-known and prominent pieces.
But I think what's interesting with Manet is, as much as we talk about him as being in line with the Impressionists, and sometimes people talk about him as a father of impressionism, but he didn’t actually show with the Impressionists. He was influential with them — he wanted to be in the Salon with them, he was in the Salon des Refusés, but he wasn't in that first initial exhibition of the Impressionists.
But as we look at this painting — and looking at both paintings side by side — what strikes me when I’m looking at the Manet, I actually see almost a Spanish style influence here. The Manet version feels like it could have been painted by Diego Velázquez or something. It feels so dark and high contrast and dramatic with these shadows. As you’re looking at that painting — or either of the paintings — what’s jumping out to you?
JESSICA: Well, one thing that’s really interesting that I didn't know when I first looked at these paintings is that,, up in the left corner of the Manet painting is a painted name of the dog, Tama. And in the Renoir painting, it's very faint but it is also there in the same general space, the upper left hand corner. Putting the name of the animal up in the corner of a painting was something that was done for a king who wanted a picture of his horse. So it was sort of this point of pride and, you know, showing off! And so I think that is so funny you know for them to — I think it's a joke. It seems to be an inside joke — oh yes, all of these noble horses of these kings in this tradition — here’s a noble, ridiculous little dog. The Manet has this Japanese doll on the floor, which again indicates where this dog is from and that the dog has sort of defeated this doll and it's this playful little warrior. The Manet piece feels very playful and silly — and dramatic. And I think there's an irony there that's fun.
The Renoir piece just feels luscious you know, like most Renoirs. The dog is sort of floating in this beautiful sea of color. There's a little slash of color that was probably a ribbon tied around the dog’s neck, that adds something interesting, and that stands out — it’s kind of a tangerine color. It’s got one paw lifted which again is maybe a nod to the way that many of those horses were painted, where they have one hoof raised in the air, which is sort of funny.
It's obviously the same dog, and when I saw those two paintings and realized it was the same dog, I kind of freaked out. I was like oh my gosh, what! What is the story here! And the years — the Manet was done in 1875 and the Renoir was done in 1876; obviously they were somehow related. So it was really fun to uncover that story.
“It’s obviously the same dog, and when I saw those two paintings and realized it was the same dog, I kind of freaked out. I was like oh my gosh, what! What is the story here! And the years — the Manet was done in 1875 and the Renoir was done in 1876; obviously they were somehow related. So it was really fun to uncover that story. ”
KYLE: Well it’s amazing how much these famous figures from art history seemed to interact. It makes sense when you think about — it’s a small circle of like-minded people who are supporting each other, and that’s how they become the big towering figures because they banded together and they all had these revolutionary ideas about what art is and what it could be. I love this as a sort of example of how they would flout conventions and and you know do stuff that is a little bit subversive. I mean taking the traditional regal portraiture of a horse and applying it to a dog — that is kind of funny.
I actually I'm going to be honest I could not see the name Tama in the Renoir — I don't know if that's like… you know how Renoir is always criticized as not being very good at painting because everything has that that hazy sort of look or if it's just my old man eyes…
JESSICA: I wish I could be as not good at painting as Renoir!
KYLE: You know it's a common critique, but you know the dude is still probably better at painting than I am.
JESSICA: Hahah, rest in peace.
KYLE: But he could still probably paint circles around me.
JESSICA: If you zoom in, you can see it on the high res file, but yeah it's faded. I’m not sure if it was always meant to sort of be sort of ghostly over there in the corner and not too prominent, or if the pigment faded, but yeah it's a fun element in there.
KYLE: Yeah and that is probably true that some of the pigments could have faded.I know a fair number of Impressionists were early adopters of some synthetic pigments, because that was the new technology of the day — the tube of paint was a 19th century invention along with the mass production of pigments. I think it's worth being mindful of how all of these things that we don't think of as “technology” really were new, fresh and exciting in the day, and that influenced the work in the long term because some of those pigments were not as stable as others.
JESSICA: Yeah and just having a tube of paint mean being able to paint outside freely and easily and portably — it’s like the printing press, it’s kind of a revolution.
KYLE: It's interesting though to see these two pictures side by side, because the Renoir feels so casual compared to the Manet. The Manet feels a lot more studied, even though it's a moment of triumph after the battle against the doll, and in that sense it's very playful. But it still feels much more controlled, and much more thoughtful.
JESSICA: Or staged even. Yeah, I agree.
KYLE: So do you have a favorite between the two?
JESSICA: I mean I love Manet, I really do. Some of my favorite moments in museums have been standing in front of Manets. So it would be hard not to choose the Manet. But, I also do love this Renoir. I mean just bringing that dreamy, airy, fluffy sweet kind of approach that he's so known for to a dog. You know, I actually love this approach more for dogs than for example, women, hahaha. So yeah I don't know — can I love them equally? Are they my twin babies that I can love equally?
KYLE: I think that's fair. I think to open your heart and love dogs and all their forms is a perfectly valid stance. I do have a fondness for both; I think there's no wrong answer. There's something I really do like about the Manet though, just because it kind of reminds me of — to draw comparison to a more contemporary artist — Ryan Berkeley. He does these pet portraits that seem very traditional and they’re rendered meticulously and the animal looks very dignified, but then it's like it's a dog and sunglasses and it's wearing a Hawaiian type shirt with hot dogs on it and the piece is called Cool Dog. I just love people who put a lot of thought and attention to detail into something that is playful; something that other people might dismiss or dash off. I really love the fact that Manet is clearly taking his time and being thoughtful and deliberate about every single element there. And that's not to say that Renoir wasn't — he had his own style. It was a different vibe he's going for.
But I really like to see evidence of thought and work. The name of the dog being up there is a nod to this. It's these Easter eggs that give me the joy of discovery, and a smug sense of satisfaction when I feel like I get what he's doing there.
“ It might be really difficult to imagine yourself living in 1800s France: there’s a lot to process about what that world was, and how it might have felt to be there. But you can feel an immediate connection to a dog: how someone felt about a dog and how that dog was a part of their lives if you have pets in your life. I think that’s one magical thing about looking at museums and art through this lens of dogs. ”
JESSICA: All of these elements that we’re talking about feel like ways to connect with the art and the person over decades of time and space — and it’s the same for dogs, and animals in general, in art. It might be really difficult to imagine yourself living in 1800s France: there's a lot to process about what that world was, and how it might have felt to be there. But you can feel an immediate connection to a dog: how someone felt about a dog and how that dog was a part of their lives if you have pets in your life. I think that's one magical thing about looking at museums and art through this lens of dogs.
KYLE: Oh, I love that point — dogs being a common accessible entry point that we can all relate to. It’s a brilliant point about how dogs give us this point of connection with art history that so many times can feel esoteric and inaccessible to people. I mean if you walk into a museum without a certain amount of background knowledge, to some extent, why do I care about this canvas that some dude stumbled around his barn and spilled paint on, you know? But when I see a dog, I get what he's doing. There is more to appreciate and it still rewards those who do the study, but there's something for everyone. Dogs are just welcoming in so many ways.
I wanted to wrap up this episode by asking: as you were researching and developing and writing this book, were there any unexpected discoveries, insights, “aha moments” that came to you?
JESSICA: I think the fact that every one of the objects in this book — painting, sculpture; there’s a collection of beadwork items like an eyeglasses case made by artisans in Mexico — every single one of these objects is an entry point for so many stories. And even pieces where, maybe there was an anonymous artist, there's still something to learn there from the time period, the culture, from who collected it and why they collected it.
“History is a collection of stories. And when I found those intriguing or fun or heart-warming moments within the stories of these dogs and their people, I felt more connected to those particular people, and those particular dogs. And that led to feeling connected to all humans throughout time, and to all dogs throughout time. I had a lot of very “proud to be a human” moments as I collected these stories.”
So in my mind it's just this treasure trove of stories that are absolutely fascinating. And you know I'm not like some massive history buff - I like art. And I like learning stories. History is a collection of stories. And when I found those intriguing or fun or heart-warming moments within the stories of these dogs and their people, I felt more connected to those particular people, and those particular dogs. And that led to feeling connected to all humans throughout time, and to all dogs throughout time. I had a lot of very “proud to be a human” moments as I collected these stories.
KYLE: One of the points that you just made that was a bit of an aha moment for me, an insight I want to to repeat and really emphasize: You talked about how, even a piece where the artist's name may be unknown, there's still a story in who collected it and why. And that art is not just an artist putting stuff out for — it's not a monologue, where the artist is putting something out and they're just yelling at all of us. It is more social, and it's socially constructed. These stories, these histories are about how people interact with the work, how people respond to it, and what it says about us as a society. And I think that is an absolutely beautiful point that you are making that I want to sign on to, and pretend that I made that connection and had that insight too.
JESSICA: I’m happy to share it with you and the world, hahaha.
KYLE: This is why I like talking to people who are smarter than me. Because you're laying down all this wisdom, and I'm sitting here just looking at the adorable dog vase in the background in your studio.
JESSICA: Yeah that’s a good one - Katie Kimmel does dog vases. You should really get in on that.
KYLE: I will! I'll have to add some more links to the show notes, because obviously for listeners interested in the book I'm going to have the links in there, but also Katie Kimmel you said? That's an artist I’m not familiar with, so I’ll have to look her up and make sure that I can add her to the show notes so listeners can find out more about these dogs.
Other than telling people to buy the book, are there any final thoughts or takeaways? What do you want listeners to hear and appreciate to notice about dogs and art history?
JESSICA: You know, it's fun! If you go to a museum and you're dreading it, go look for dogs. You will find them. I guarantee you'll find at least one dog in any major art museum.
And also just more generally, I would love for people to feel free to connect with whatever they are attracted to at museums and in art in general. You don't have to connect with everything, you don't have to look at everything. Trust yourself. Trust your taste. It’s telling you something about who you are and what you like. Don't let somebody tell you what you “should” like or “have to like.” When you pay attention to what you like, by following that path, you're going to learn more about what you like, you're going to learn more about the art, and you're going to be more excited about it. It doesn't have to be stuffy and academic, it can be very visceral and connective.
“I would love for people to feel free to connect with whatever they are attracted to at museums and art in general. You don’t have to connect with everything, you don’t have to look at everything. Trust yourself. Trust your taste. It’s telling you something about who you are and what you like. Don’t let somebody tell you what you “should” like or “have to like.” When you pay attention to what you like, by following that path, you’re going to learn more about what you like, you’re going to learn more about the art, and you’re going to be more excited about it. It doesn’t have to be stuffy and academic, it can be very visceral and connective.”
KYLE: Oh I love that. I love that. Your tastes are valid and whatever appeals to you is totally fine. You don't have to like everything that everyone else likes. Even if you somehow don't like dogs, that's okay, because there is something you can find that you will enjoy and appreciate. And if I can just “yes, and” that comment, I want to say that the parent and the teacher in me is sitting here thinking how rad it would be to take your kids to the museum with a little scavenger hunt. Give people the objective to find the most adorable dog, the ugliest dog, the the most dismissible dog, the dog that seems a little pretentious — come up with all the different descriptors you can for the different types of dogs, and see how many you and your kids or your friends can tick off the list. I bet that would be a fun museum game that would help you discover stuff you never thought was out there
JESSICA: I’ll meet you at the Met, we’ll give it a try — we’ll pilot it.
KYLE: I love that idea. I had a great time with this discussion. I do want to say a big thank you once again Jessica Poundstone. Listeners, the book is “Museum of Dogs: A Romp Through Art History for Dog People.” It's just fun and the world needs more of that. Thank you so much once again.
JESSICA: Thank you!
